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  #1  
Old 07-16-2011, 08:51 PM
moynul333 moynul333 is offline
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Default Is masdar and masdar muawwal and lamu ta'leel all the same

As salamu alaikum,
I have a question from book2, lesson17 line 2.
Kharajtu li-ashrabal maa'a
I exited to drink water.
1.)What if lam ta'leel was replaced with 'an' (made masdar muawwal).
Would the translation still be the same.
2.) And what if the lam taleel was replaced with a masdar shurbun.
Would it mean: I exited drinking the water.
This does not make sense, I heard the video of Asif meherali it is ok to change.
3.) and finally what is the difference between the first two, which us more
Preferable to use.

Jazakallahu khair wa jadakallahu ilm
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  #2  
Old 07-17-2011, 02:35 AM
hassan hassan is offline
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wa alaikumussalaam.
yes brother, masdar and masdar muawwal function similarly.



يُحِبُّ أَكْلاً
He likes eating. Because in English there is such a thing as infinitive one may translate as: He likes to eat.


يُحِبُّ أَنْ يَأْكُلَ
(literally: He likes that he eats.) He likes eating. Because in English there is such a thing as infinitive one may translate as: He likes to eat.

In Arabic with masdar and masdar muawal, the meaning is exactly the same: He likes eating.




laam taleel is harf jarr "li". but brother, in your sentence it makes the verb mansoob. why?
the answer is: followed by laam taleel there is "an" hidden inside. in other words, laam taleel is followed by a masdar muawwal.
خرجت ل أن أشربَ الماء = خرجت لأشربَ الماءَ
you can change this masdar muawwal into masdar. the meaning will remain same:
خرجت لشربِ الماءِ

if you use masdar muawwal then الماء become mafulun bihi for ashraba
if you use masdar then الماء becomes mudaaf ilaih
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  #3  
Old 07-17-2011, 02:29 PM
moynul333 moynul333 is offline
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Default Which is more preferrable to use?

Jazakallah for the detailed explanation.
I understand they have the same meaning, but which one is more preferrable to use masdar or masdar muawwal or lamu ta'leel?
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  #4  
Old 07-17-2011, 03:09 PM
hassan hassan is offline
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assalamu alaikum.
sorry i cant help you in this. havent yet studied these topics in that much detail. but alhamdulillah you understood the main theme. so keep moving forward in Book 2 lectures. and wait for an experienced reply.
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  #5  
Old 07-19-2011, 02:39 PM
benss benss is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moynul333 View Post
As salamu alaikum,
I have a question from book2, lesson17 line 2.
Kharajtu li-ashrabal maa'a
I exited to drink water.
1.)What if lam ta'leel was replaced with 'an' (made masdar muawwal).
Would the translation still be the same.
2.) And what if the lam taleel was replaced with a masdar shurbun.
Would it mean: I exited drinking the water.
This does not make sense, I heard the video of Asif meherali it is ok to change.
3.) and finally what is the difference between the first two, which us more
Preferable to use.

Jazakallahu khair wa jadakallahu ilm
Sal‚mou'aleikoum wa rahmatoull‚h wa barak‚touh,

first, i've read hassan's post and i want first to warn you about the statement saying that "لِ", in this particular context, is a حرف جر. This is definitely not correct. Here, "لِ" is what we usually name in arabic حرف تعليل (as you mentioned moynul333) or in english "the particule of causality". So, here i come to your questions brother (or sister??) moynul333.

When you say خرجت لأشربَ الماءَ
1) i'm not sure you can replace the lam ta'lil with "an" as fas as you meaningly want to give the cause (or the reason) of why you left. Morevover, grammaticaly speaking, in لأشربَ, the particle أن is actually the particule which cause the verb to be mansub (and not lam ta'lil !!!!), but it's just that أن is "invisible". We name it أن المضمرة. So, in لأشربَ the particle أن already exists in your sentence though it is hidden. Thus, saying that you want to replace "لِ" with أن is not correct as far as أن already "exist" in your sentence.

2) Given what i told you in point 1), your question of whether lam ta'lil can be replace by a masdar muawwal, you mean more precisely if أن المضمرة plus the verb أشرب can be replace with "لشروبِ" (which would cause, by the way, the ism الماء to be مجرور بالإضاف) ? For this i don't know.

3) Given what i told you in point 1) and 2), you can deduce that the most preferable or the most correct is to keep the sentence as it is. The use of the particule "li" is required by the context and the grammar. But the question of whether the particule أن المضمرة plus the verb (mansoub) can be replace with a masdar I don't know.
That's an intersesting question as far as i only remember the typical case where we usually replaced أن الظاهرة + فعل مضارع منصوب with the it's corresponding masdar.
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Old 07-19-2011, 02:43 PM
benss benss is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moynul333 View Post
As salamu alaikum,
I have a question from book2, lesson17 line 2.
Kharajtu li-ashrabal maa'a
I exited to drink water.
1.)What if lam ta'leel was replaced with 'an' (made masdar muawwal).
Would the translation still be the same.
2.) And what if the lam taleel was replaced with a masdar shurbun.
Would it mean: I exited drinking the water.
This does not make sense, I heard the video of Asif meherali it is ok to change.
3.) and finally what is the difference between the first two, which us more
Preferable to use.

Jazakallahu khair wa jadakallahu ilm
Once more:

I've read again your post and just to be sure that the objects we are talking are correctly named, we say:

أن + أشربَ is a masdar muawal while شروب it's the corresponding masdar.

PS: أن الظاهرة means the "apparent an " by opposition to the "hidden an" ( أن المضمرة )
Slm.

Last edited by benss; 07-19-2011 at 02:50 PM.
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  #7  
Old 07-19-2011, 06:31 PM
moynul333 moynul333 is offline
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As salamu alaikum,
Thank you for replying.
Could you please tell me what kharajtu liashraba ma'a means and what kharajtu an ashraba maa'a means?
and if you know which is more preferrable to use.

Jazakallah khair
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  #8  
Old 07-19-2011, 11:23 PM
benss benss is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moynul333 View Post
As salamu alaikum,
Thank you for replying.
Could you please tell me what kharajtu liashraba ma'a means and what kharajtu an ashraba maa'a means?
and if you know which is more preferrable to use.

Jazakallah khair
Dear moynul333,

as I said in my post with the grammatical explanation and as far as I know, it is not correct to say:
- kharajtu an ashraba maa'a
(here you have 2 mistakes: the 1st which refers to the use of "an" as i explained above in my post and the second is "maa'a" which either should be "maa'an', that is to say with tanwin, or al-maa'a, without tanwin but with the article).

- the correct one is "kharajtu liashraba al-ma'a".
So this second one is the "preferable" one since the first one is not correct.
The meaning: "I left to drink water/for drinking water".

Maybe i did not expressed myself correctly but in the post i've wrote before i explained why it is not correct to say "kharajtu an ashraba maa'an" while " kharajtu liashraba al-ma'a" is correct.

Hope it's clear.
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  #9  
Old 07-20-2011, 11:00 PM
irf2k irf2k is offline
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Walaikum Assalam
Keeping the Lam of Taleet out of my posting and dealing only with The Masdar Muawal and the Masdar.
They are inter changeable and non is more correct than the other. Is a question of what you prefer to use.

For example:
أُرِيْدُ الخُرُوْجَ

has the same meaning as:
أُرِيْدُ أَنْ أَخْرُجَ


I hope this helps.

Wasalam



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  #10  
Old 07-20-2011, 11:43 PM
benss benss is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irf2k View Post
Walaikum Assalam
Keeping the Lam of Taleet out of my posting and dealing only with The Masdar Muawal and the Masdar.
They are inter changeable and non is more correct than the other. Is a question of what you prefer to use.

For example:
أُرِيْدُ الخُرُوْجَ

has the same meaning as:
أُرِيْدُ أَنْ أَخْرُجَ


I hope this helps.

Wasalam



Sal‚mou'aleikoum wa rahmatoull‚h wa barak‚touh,

your post is clear brother irf2k, both are interchangeable.
However the tricky point comes when we deal with the Lam of Taleet (and those, implicitly, with "an al moudmara"). So the question is, i try to be as clear as possible:
Is it allow to switch from the "Masdar Muawal" (if it is called so, when the particule "an" is not apparent) and the Masdar when the sentence contains the Lam of Taleet ?
Typically is it allow to replace the following correct sentence:

خرجت لأشربَ الماءَ

by:

خرجت لشروبِ الماءِ

?

Do you get what I mean brother irf2k ?
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