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W.Syed
04-20-2012, 07:14 AM
SA

In which of the four of the following:
1. Definite/Indefinite
2. Case
3. Gender
4. Number
Are the Mubtada and Khabr the same ?

JZK

mohanedshaikh
04-20-2012, 07:51 AM
w alaykum as salaam
.. they are matches in number and gender ..

W.Syed
04-20-2012, 08:15 AM
w alaykum as salaam
.. they are matches in number and gender ..

هاتان السيارتان للمدرس
Book 1, lesson 18, page 103, number 8

Mubtada = هاتان

Dual and Feminine

Khabr = للمدرس

Singular and Masculine

I understand why the Khabr is masculine, because the teacher is a male but I would have thought that it would be in the dual because the mubtada is in the dual.

If the Khabr and Mubtada must be the same in number and gender then how would we say "These two cows belong to the farmer" ? Or "This cow belongs to the farmer" ? In both cases the mubtada is feminine and the khabr is masculine.

JZK for your time

M_Mudassir_Saeed
04-20-2012, 09:24 AM
Naat (i.e. Adjective) and Manout (i.e. Noun Qualified) - both are supposed to conform to each other for each of the following you mentioned

1. Definite/Indefinite
2. Case
3. Gender
4. Number

But I don't think if there is such rule for Mubtada and Khabar - where did you learn that such rule exist for Mubtada and Khabar as well? Would appreciate if you could provide the source? If it's Brother Asif lecture then DVD Number?

Khabar and Mubtaba has never to be same in number and gender - consider the following.

Hazaa Kitaabun [This is a Book] = Mubtada Singular/Masculine & Khabar Singular/Masculine
Hazihee Kutubun [These are Books] = Mubtada Singular/Feminine & Khabar Plural/Masculine - Remember Kullu Jamma Muaness [i.e. All Plurals are Feminine]

Hope this helps!

hassan
04-20-2012, 10:36 AM
assalamu alaikum.
brother mohanedshaikh is right. the khabar agrees with the mubtada in number and gender. if the mubtada is singular, the khabar will be singular. if its dual or plural, the khabar will also be dual or plural. if the mubtada is masculine, the khabar will be masculine; and if it is feminine the khabar will also be feminine.

khabar is of 5 kinds. and brother mohanedshaikh is talking about 'one word' khabar.

mohanedshaikh
04-20-2012, 11:28 AM
brother syed, i am talking about khabar in one word, it always matches in gender and number. and khabar is of five kinds. d example you quoted from the book. haatani as sayyarataani lilmudiri . lil mudiri is jar majroor is shibbu jumla khabar and nt one word. one always matches mubtada. jzakAllah :)

W.Syed
04-20-2012, 06:58 PM
brother syed, i am talking about khabar in one word, it always matches in gender and number. and khabar is of five kinds. d example you quoted from the book. haatani as sayyarataani lilmudiri . lil mudiri is jar majroor is shibbu jumla khabar and nt one word. one always matches mubtada. jzakAllah :)

JZK,

So to summarize, am I right in saying that if khabr is one word then it must match in gender and number, but if it is one of the other 4 kinds then no relation exists, at all, between the Khabr and mubtada ?

Tanweer
04-20-2012, 07:41 PM
JZK,

So to summarize, am I right in saying that if khabr is one word then it must match in gender and number, but if it is one of the other 4 kinds then no relation exists, at all, between the Khabr and mubtada ?

That's right. Since we are new learners, this is sufficient for us, for now.

Edit :In my original reply, I gave links to Sheikh's article, but I removed them as they are too advanced.

M_Mudassir_Saeed
04-21-2012, 02:27 PM
I were believing that there is no relation between Mubtada and Khabar even if it's one word, please consider the following.

These are books = Hazihee Kutubun = Mubtada Singular/Feminine & Khabar Plural/Masculine

In above sentence, Mubtada and Khabar are not conforming/matching to each other in gender and number.

So again, I would conclude, there is no relation between Mubtada and Khabar.

Would you please correct if there is anything wrong with my perception?

I'm at Book 2 - Lesson 7 and don't want my base to be that weak honestly!

Jazaak Allah!

mohanedshaikh
04-21-2012, 02:33 PM
These are books = Hazihee Kutubun = Mubtada Singular/Feminine & Khabar Plural/Masculine

... brother the example you quoted

hazihe here is fem/singular .... and its khabar - kutubun is kullu jama muannas which is treated as (singular/fem)

because all ghair akal plural is treated as singular/fem ... and thats the reason the mubtada used is (haazihi ) <<which is just same as its khabar that is >>> kutubun is singular/fem ... refer the rule of kullu jamaa muannas...

all ghair akal plural are treated as singular and feminine...

note: mubtada and khabar match in gender and number if khabar is used as one word

thank you.. may Allah increase me and all of us in ilm .. :)

M_Mudassir_Saeed
04-21-2012, 03:04 PM
Hmmm... okay...

Perhaps I've not gained enough knowledge yet to believe that it's necessary to have relation between Mubtada & One Word Khabar.

These are Books = Hazihee Kutubun

My understanding was - By just treating Books (Kutubun) as Singular/Feminine would not actually change the gender of Kutubun.

As I thought - The rule "Kullu Jamma Muaness" just helps choose appropriate Mubtada, and does not change the gender of Khabar, hence concluded no relation between Mubtada and Khabar.

But perhaps this perception is no good.

Anyway thanks for clarification!

irf2k
04-22-2012, 09:19 PM
I were believing that there is no relation between Mubtada and Khabar even if it's one word, please consider the following.

These are books = Hazihee Kutubun = Mubtada Singular/Feminine & Khabar Plural/Masculine

In above sentence, Mubtada and Khabar are not conforming/matching to each other in gender and number.

So again, I would conclude, there is no relation between Mubtada and Khabar.

Would you please correct if there is anything wrong with my perception?

I'm at Book 2 - Lesson 7 and don't want my base to be that weak honestly!

Jazaak Allah!

The rule is: they must grammatically agree in gender and number.
There is another rule about plural of irrationals being grammatically treated as singular feminine.
See lesson 16 of Book 1 for explanation.